Requests - Time for some new / revised Request Conditions?

I'm willing to take up requests. But as before they'll probably be few and far in between. And I'm busier with real life work far more than before.

Still, it'd be good to contribute to the community again. Plus Nibs wont bite my legs when I sleep any more.

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Hishgraphics: A View From The Tenth Freaking Floor

I would love to take requests again, but I won't be able to for a little while... hopefully soon I'll have the necessary software. But as far as number of unfulfilled requests... we do what we can. I can't think of a way to reduce the amount of pending requests without limiting how many requests can be made at one time, which something I certainly don't want to see done. I enjoyed being able to scour the forums for original character ideas, for requests that really grabbed me. We can only do so many male, brown-haired Jedi humans with blue lightsabers. I guess my point is this: yes, it's disappointing to requesters when their requests go unfulfilled, but I think they would be much more disappointed if we limited the amount of requesting that could be done. It would not be fair, because someone with a great idea may not be able to request due to inundation of human Jedi requests (or something along those lines). I find nothing wrong with the old system of handling requests, having approached it from both ends (as requester and then as artist). I've had requests go unfulfilled, but the artists came through for me when I really needed it, and when my ideas were art-worthy.

Boshuda

I think all the old complaints about the requests being made will still be there.

Requests for the same type of double black-colored lightsaber-wielding zabrak sith lord sniper commando type will always be there.

As will requests for things already in the gallery, but with very minor changes, that seem to the requester to require a totally new piece being worked up.

I think that the best way to handle it, is the same as we always have in the past.

Any request is free to be made, and artists are under 0 obligation to do any of them! :)

The ridiculous ones just sit there...because no artist wants to do it. Pretty soon the requester will get the hint, and maybe try for a different approach.

On the other hand what one artist find ridiculous, another might realize it's something he or she has always wanted to draw, without knowing it.

Personally, I draw what I like, but when what I want to draw meshes well with a request, the synergy of it is overwhelming. Even though we do it all for free, the feeling of having another satisfied 'customer' is priceless.

Precisely!

Boshuda

One of the things I want to see addressed (thought I don't think it ever happened to me) are the requests that get accepted by an artist and then sit in the pending pool for an obscene period of time.

A month or two is fine, granted, but I believe on the old SWAG, there were some requests that had been "pending" for a couple of years.

A check and balance system needs to be insitituted so that if say...x-number of months go by on a pending request with either no upate from the artist or the requester, then the request is considered abandoned, and the thread is closed. Closed threads can remain up for y-number of weeks before being deleted, in case the artist/requester hasn't seen it yet.

I love the work done here and always have, but let's be honest; it's ridiculous to have a request "pending" for more than 12 months.

* reduce the number of standing / unfulfilled requests

I'm afraid I don't know what can be done about that. When we play with the idea of limiting the number of requests or obligating people to fulfill requests then it takes the life and spontaneity out of it all. Requesters should learn to make valid and "art-worthy" requests, and artists should learn to look past the "cookie cutter" requests.

Another idea might be for requests that have been sitting for a long time to be removed periodically. There's a lot of work that can go into that, but maybe the requester doesn't even want that drawn any more, so why keep it up? A good house-cleaning would be nice, but be sure that a requester doesn't want it up any more first.

* minimize on unsatisfied request results

I think one thing that will help a ton in this regard is the WIP blogs. I know there have been times in the past where I've completed a request and the person was unsatisfied, but if they would have been able to see the work before it was finished I could fix whatever the problem was without it essentially being a whole new project.

* deal with those unsatisfied requesters

I say if a person is unsatisfied with a request, then rerequest! Perhaps that would be a little hard on the artist's feelings, though. I don't know. It's a free, voluntary service, and requesters should understand that up front. Other players in my group understand that while I try my best, I don't always have time and they need to be clear about exactly what they want. Also, if a request is time-sensitive, they should make that clear, so that an artist doesn't snatch it up then take his/her time with it.

* reduce artist burnout / disgruntlement

Dude, keep it fun! Do the requests that inspire you! If nothing's inspiring you, make some requests of your own! I did that once, just to see another person's perspective on something. What better way to inject new excitement into the request board than for some new, quality requests?

As far as disgruntlement goes, I don't mind requests for things that are totally off the wall like black lightsabers or Sith Lord sniper commandos, as long as the request paints a picture in my mind worth putting to paper. What I look for in those kinds of pictures is a personality, something that makes this character more than the sum of its parts. When I have a psyche to hang all those munchkin trappings around, then I feel comfortable taking that request.

I don't mind requests for things that are similar to something already posted, as long the requester wants the new piece for more than just cosmetic reasons. I had this happen once, where a request called for a Zabrak girl. I thought, "Hey, I've drawn one of those!" (http://swagonline.net/node/836) so I showed them a link. But when they said it didn't match the personality and demeanor of their character, and clarified what personality they were looking for, I snatched it right up, because I could see they were looking for more than just a new little scar or different hair coloring. http://swagonline.net/node/2647 is a special request for me because of that.

I was always sad to see the requests disappear from SWAG, because in a lot of ways they were the lifeblood of the website. People would come here not only to see what we had drawn independently but to see their own ideas fleshed out and submitted.

I don't feel the old system needed drastic changes but I enjoy Seghast and Evan Black's point on pending requests taking WAY too long. I myself as a requester and guildy had a request that I couldn't quite get right in my own head so I posted it as a request to get a picture of what I wanted in my head. Sadly that request never left pending request for a year. When a request sits in pending for way to long something should be done... Im not sure whether it mean making requests open again when they have been sitting far to long. Or regular updates with Eclipse. But that is one point that does seem to need some revision.

So... this seems like as good a place as any to talk about the request system. I'll outline what I'm thinking at this point and you can gimme some feed back.

1.) I acknowledge there were problems with the old system
2.) Lots of stuff went unanswered for ages, and that needs some remedy, at least for the sake of cleanliness
3.) I'd like for there to be some sort of organization to the whole thing
4.) The process for claiming a request should be easy, and then it should be yours and not be where other people have to see it when looking for requests of their own to take.
5.) Artists shouldn't have more than one request on their plate at a time (imo)
6.) Community members shouldn't be able to submit more than one unclaimed request at a time.

These are just my thoughts at the moment. Let me know what you all think.

Eclipse

Hmm, interesting point in having it be one request, one claim. I think that will make things simpler.

Maybe for the Requester, we could have a form to fill out with certain things that we as artists generally had to remind people of such as: What clothes does he/she/it wear? Does it have a specific eye color? What time period? Male or Female? (hey, I've had to clarify weird things before)
Maybe with a standard document it would be easier for a request to get fulfilled.

I.E.
Hair:
Eyes:
Skin:
Clothes:
Time Period:
Extra Information:
Stats: ?
Etc...

One request active at a time, and only one claim per artist sounds great to me, and I like the idea of a form filling out basic information about the request. A lot of requests on the old site seemed to be lacking in specific information, but if there was a form or template asking for some specifics, it might help. A form for single character, a duo, or a small scene, etc.

Good idea Drig. I think the requester should also be asked to write a short and succinct description of the character(s)/Scene/Vehicle/Whatever first before going into more details. Something to sell it to the artists.

I can never state this enough, even from during my Template Facade days:

Make the description and history of the character interesting and I'll try to draw the character in context with them. You can have a request with the most interesting alien description with an ornate cloak, a body armor and elaborate hairstyle, holding an ingeniously described weapon... in the end, a guy standing with a weapon is just a guy standing with a weapon.
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Hishgraphics: A View From The Tenth Freaking Floor

Oh yeah, forgot about vehicles and planets and what not... well maybe there can be various questions to ask? Such as
Estimated Height of Vehicle:
Crew Required:
Guns:
Planet Color:
Type of Fauna:
Moons:
Rifle, Pistol, Vibro?:
New equipment or Used?:
Moon or Spacestation?:

All these questions could get old however...

Very, Very true Hish...

Well, it just sounds like we're going to need to quantify what's being requested first... I can do that, it'll just mean there are multiple pages worth of forms to fill out to do a request... I don't think that will bother people as we're just trying to make the artist's life easier, and make the end product better. I like this discussion, it's painting a very clear picture very quickly, so let's get more specific.

What are the general types of requests people make? Weapons, Characters, Vehicles... give me more, and then what are all the pieces of info for any one of those types you, as an artist, would find useful?

Eclipse

In the past the deal was two requests at a time. This allowed an artist who was diligently working on the first one a freedom to snatch up another for after if he/she felt inspired by that piece. I kind of liked that, and while I agree that a limit to claims is necessary, I think 1 is a little tight. 2 always worked in the past. I don't have a problem with a member posting 2 requests either.

In the past it was always set up with a Requests/Pending Requests/Completed Requests track. That always seemed to work because it removed the claimed requests into "Pending" and out of the pool of unclaimed to choose from.

There are several things that scare me about the form requests:

1. Limited Description. In the process of providing the artist with all this information it's easy to conclude that once you've filled out the form you've given the artist everything they need in order to draw your picture. This is simply not so. I've never felt inspired to draw any character based on their "driver's license" stats. As Hisham said, a laundry list of measurements and colors isn't going to "sell it" to the artists. You might as well pass off a rhinoceros as a hippo with a horn.

2. Limited Options. So we have forms for characters, creatures, planets, vehicles, weapons, etc. What about requests that don't fall into those categories? I once did a request for glitterlillies. FLOWERS! Are we going to have a form for those too? What if someone wants to see something drawn but can't find the proper forms to fill out? Are they going to feel turned away because we weren't geared to handle what they wanted to see?

3. Limited Creativity. Aside from the requester putting little more effort into their request than the form requires, it removes a certain degree of creative control from the artist as well. My most fulfilling requests as an artist have been the ones where I was presented with a theme, a moment, something alive and not just a barren list of arbitrary stats. If hair, eyes, skin and clothes matter so much to a requester, they'll mention it any way. But sometimes it doesn't, and that's where the artist can bring their artistic strengths into the process, instead of mechanically cranking out a picture that meets specifications. Eclipse said this discussion is painting a clearer picture- and it is- but I think forms would be painting ourselves into a corner. Did DaVinci Paint the Mona Lisa based on her driver's license stats? I don't think so...

If in the process we artists are curious about such things as hair color and eye color, or even if they're right or left handed, then they should feel free to ask! Let your creativity govern your art, and not some fastidious form.

I hereby place my votes on "2 requests for both requesters and artists", and "NO FORMS!" This is art, not bureaucracy.

Character or Rogues Gallery:
-One, Two, or Three Characters
-Male or Female
-Species
-Body Type
-Skin Color
-Any Other Specific Species Traits (Eye Color, Hair Color and Style, Fin Length, Blotches and Spots, etc...?)
-Clothing (If any)
-Time Period
-Gear (Clothing could cover this)
-Specials (Scars, Tattoos, Abnormalities)
-Personality and Disposition (For Poses, Facial Expressions, etc..)
-What Makes This Character Unique and Interesting to Draw?

New Species:
-Male, Female, or Both Depicted
-Body Type
-Any Other Specific Species Traits (As in characters but with more of a generalization of the species)
-Culture (For Clothing and Equipment)
-Time Period Depicted
-Species General Personality and Disposition
-Stats
-What Make This Species Unique and Interesting to Draw?

Weapon:
-Type (Pistol, Rifle, Lightsaber, Vibro, Melee, Sonic, Something New?)
-Size (Rough Measurement or about the size of an apple, marble, car, etc...)
-Weapon Specifics (Special Designs such as Barrel has Circles on it, Lightsaber has wooden parts, Bomb has an ancient text written across it)
-Time Periods
-New or Used
-Stats
-What Makes This Weapon Unique and Interesting to Draw?

Vehicle or Ship:
-Type (Ground, Atmospheric, Fighter, Transport, Capital Ship)
-Size (Rough Measurement)
-Vehicle or Ship Specifics (Special Designs such as Large Wheels, Antenna Dish, Large Planet Destroying Laser, Painted Logo, Cockpit Specifics?)
-Time Periods
-New or Used
-Stats
-What Make This Ship or Vehicle Unique and Interesting to Draw?

Droid Model:
-Degree
-Size
-Body Type
-Painted?
-Droid Specifics (Special Designs such as Face Plate based off of Certain Species, Weapons, Special Attachments, Hidden Limbs, Grill for a Mouth?, Etc..)
-Time Periods
-New or Used
-Stats
-What Makes This Droid Unique and Interesting to Draw?

Environment:
-Landscape (Whether it be a tree, a lake, a Mountain Range, a Map of the Local Area, Etc...?)
-Weather (Snowing, Raining, Burning Hot Twin Suns)
-Ground (Dirt, Urban, Sand, Ocean, Volcano, Etc...)
-Structures (Design, Culture, Size and Shape, Color)
-Indigenous People (As in Species Description)
-Time Period
-What Makes This Lanscape Unique and Interesting to Draw?

That's about all the categories I can think of at the moment. All these questions are optional, however a disclaimer should be put out that these are to help the requester's piece get selected. The last question of What Makes ----- unique and Interesting to Draw? should help the requester keep in mind that he's trying to appeal to the artist with his/her concept. Just some thoughts?

If what we put into place doesn't seem to work, everything is changeable. Nothing is Permanent.

In response to Evan Blacks comment. I too feel that we should avoid making a cookie cutter questioner. However I believe the forms are more for those that do not get their requests taken as often as they would hope and this aids them in that it might spark something that might not have been thought of at the time of the request. Every bit of information on the form is optional. Heck the way I imagined it as working is the form being akin to the taglines on our comments. An artist can still use the blank space to say anything they want, however the form is below the requesters space to type as an "aid" not a shackle and chain.

'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pink Rodian Baking a Cake in a Busy Alderanian Cafe While Children Watch in Interests.
'
'
'
'
'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Example the requester gets this space above to say anything they want.

Then the Form could follow as in my comment box.

Character or Rogues Gallery:
-One, Two, or Three Characters: One
-Male or Female: Male
-Species: Rodian
-Body Type: Skinny
-Skin Color
-Any Other Specific Species Traits
-Clothing: Chef's hat
-Time Period
-Gear
-Specials: Covered in Cake Frosting
-Personality and Disposition: Amused at the children watching
-What Makes This Character Unique and Interesting to Draw?

I don't think this will stop anyone from being creative but will in fact help those that describe themselves as "Untalented". Thats who we've always been here for anyways.

And of course, start the request with a please and end it with a thank you.

It really helps. ;-)
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Hishgraphics: A View From The Tenth Freaking Floor

Yeah, I can see maybe a friendly reminder somewhere. Sort of a "having trouble? click here!" kind of thing, where they could then read things like "try starting with the basics. Hair color, eye color, size,or whatever may apply to the nature of your request is a good place to start..." or "think of what setting best describes your character. Is he/she/it/they most comfortable in the thick of battle? A diplomatic court? Try to describe what they do. Strengths, weaknesses. When are they at their best/worst? etc." This serves a lot of the same functions as the forms above do, but with the added bonus of helping the "untalented" look at their request in a creative light.

To continue with the "pink Rodian" example, when I read that, I'm instantly hooked. "There's some character in that character!" I say to myself, but as I read on I notice they've specified "One character." Shoot, I thought it would be cool to have the children watching in interest included in the pic... Chef's hat, okay... What does "covered in cake frosting" mean? The Rodian or the picture? Man, that's gonna be murder on my scanner...

Dude, there was more description in the opening blurb. "Baking a cake in a Busy Alderaanian Cafe" told me more about this character than anything in the forms did. Why do we need anything more than an expansion on that original idea.

Whoops mistake on my part should have read three...

But back to the point, the pink rodian is an example imo an example of what we need to clarify. While you lost interest after reading about the chef hat and frosting as an artist, I as the requester had my heart set on that chef hat and frosting covered on that rodian. Plus if the artist has a question such as where does that frosting go on my scanner or character an artist could always ask the requester, like in the old day. The requester cannot ask if you made sure you got that chef hat on their. This should lead to less unhappiness in requests. In any event, I can't see the form as being a complicated and dangerous thing or even a terribly important thing. So to make a say where both sides are happy, maybe this could simply be an attached link asking "Having trouble with your request? Use our Forms as a basis to help you out and expand upon them."
Whatchya think?

Well, there's a difference between all the fields being required, and just having them there if the person cares... plus, the objective is to have a nice big area where they can add general description... the "hook" for the artist. Additionally, I would want to put together a "misc" option for requests, so someone could select that and they'd get just a title and description. This would allow things like... flowers to be requested... or whatever.

I think some good help text on the fields could be really useful, but ultimately what we're discussing so much here is characters... I don't think anyone can argue that the clearer the picture on something that's "technical" the better for most of us technical types. I would also prefer the same sort of details on characters (if I did characters) but I understand the other side to that. Perhaps we could present the requester with an option to follow a template, or just enter their request free-form? How's that as an idea?

Eclipse

Perhaps making a shopping list for the requester isn't always the way to go.

Some requesters enjoy seeing what the artist will make out of their minimalist concept. Some artists just HAVE to change certain details, and the results turn out better, even to the requester (artistic license).

So maybe on the forms to fill out, have an option for each category be :Artist Discretion.

Good points all around guys. I can see that while I don't prefer a forms idea, it can be useful to other artists and their styles. I agree with everyone in saying that if forms are established, they should not be required fields (beyond the title, of course). One thing that might useful in a form setup would be expected time frame. When would the requester prefer it done? Whenever? ASAP? I know some requests in the past have been time sensitive, and that might be something nice to know.

Good point Evan, I'll keep that in mind when I build this. :-)

Yeah, I'm really liking the idea of giving the requester the option of a "Free Form" request, or a "Templated" request... That way we make everyone happy, and still give the requesters the ability to throw something up that's minimal, while also giving them a template they can follow if they so desire.

Eclipse

I also like the free form request. I, for one, am usually turned off by a request that has every last detail of the character described because it doesn't leave me much room for creative license, and it throws up a flag for me that this requester is going to be super picky. A free form would allow a requester to think about which elements of the character are important and crucial while leaving the less important details to the imagination of the artist. If there are questions, the artist can always contact the requester for further clarification.

Also, requesters need to be aware when making a request that the resulting piece of art is going to be an interpretation of their character, and that it may not match exactly what they had envisioned in their head. The whole requests aspect of the site is supposed to be fun for artists and requesters alike, and no one is going to have fun if there's a dozen revisions demanded. Maybe there should be a limit to how many revisions a requester can ask for.

As for the artists, I think there should be a deadline once we accept a request. It should be a reasonable deadline, maybe three months or something, but a deadline nonetheless. That would keep requesters from having to wait in limbo indefinitely while the artist comes up with a million excuses why he hasn't finished the piece. And, as someone who has kept people waiting before, I know that sometimes a deadline is the only thing that will keep some of us from procrastinating forever. If the deadline is not met, then the request goes back into the bin to be snatched up by another artist.

Also, maybe there should be something where the requester specifies the level they want the piece to be taken to--portrait sketch, full body sketch, full body with background sketch, portrait in color, etc--or if they are open to any level. This might effect how long an artist has to do it. I can get a portrait sketch done a lot faster than a piece with full body full color of multiple characters interacting against a fully rendered Coruscant cityscape.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Amen Travis Moore!! Three Months, and art levels! Thumbs Up!